FMCB - framrate problems in games with different region than console

[DariuszG]

do you think that those few mhz's make a difference?

I think that it has something to do with NTSC system.
NTSC is 60Hz and PAL is 50Hz.
Maybe thats the problem? Signal converted from 60Hz to 50Hz works as 50, but the speed of the game is same as on NTSC. This may give this issues :/
When NTSC games are coverted to PAL with SwapMagic, they are simply slower (this 10 fps makes difference) but there are no frames loosing.

[dlanor]

- i was using hd loader
- that was no fmv. 90% of cutscenes in mgs3 are real-time rendered.

Well, then I have no explanation.
My own taste in games is different, so I never played that game, but there are lots of both FMV and direct-rendered cutscenes in the RPGs I prefer too, and I play several of those in NTSC on my PAL consoles without any problems of the kind you guys describe.

from what i read on wikipedia:
do you think that those few mhz's make a difference?

5/299 == appx 0.0167, so the older version has a speed lower by less than 1.7%, which should make absolutely no visible difference.

As for myself, I use both an old v7 PS2 and a much newer v15 PStwo, with very similar results. (Some bios behaviour differs, but game functionality is the same for all I've used.)

I think that it has something to do with NTSC system.
NTSC is 60Hz and PAL is 50Hz.
Maybe thats the problem? Signal converted from 60Hz to 50Hz works as 50, but the speed of the game is same as on NTSC. This may give this issues :/
When NTSC games are coverted to PAL with SwapMagic, they are simply slower (this 10 fps makes difference) but there are no frames loosing.

I don't quite understand the comparison you are making here.

Possibly SwapMagic can modify resolutions like you say, but FMCB+ESR never does any such thing.

If you run an NTSC game on a PAL console by booting it through ESR after booting the console with FMCB, then that game is going to run in its original NTSC resolution just like it would when booted on an NTSC console without ESR methods.

You made a statement in your original post, saying "FMCB somehow forcing NTSC games to work as a PAL games.", and it seems that your entire reasoning in following posts is based on that utterly false statement.

Both FMCB and ESR are completely unable to modify what resolution a game uses.
If you get PAL resolution in an NTSC game this can only be due to some other cause, such as:

1: Modchip enforces fixed resolution
2: ISO was patched to enforce fixed resolution
3: Some special launcher (SwapMagic, Xploder, whatever) was used to enforce resolution
4: Some few games may actually test the console type themselves, and adapt to it

And in all such cases, any disturbances of the framerate in the enforced resolution must be considered the responsibility of the software or hardware that enforced it. It is possible that some of those methods are unfavourably affected by having booted FMCB, in which case those methods must be avoided when booting this way.

But the surprising thing about your case is that you seem unaware of what it is that causes your games to run in PAL, and I can only assure you again that FMCB is not responsible for doing that, as it has no such ability.

Best regards: dlanor

[DariuszG]

I don't quite understand the comparison you are making here.

NTSC games are working with 60fps and PAL with 50fps. If NTSC game is displayed in PAL it has to loose 10fps. Game that looses 10fps can be slower (like while booting with SM) with smooth framerate or it can have its full speed, but then, these 10fps need to be cut or something like it. Its quite visible in PAL Tekken 5. when You select 60Hz, game is in NTSC and smooth, but when You select 50Hz, game is not as smooth - You can see some animation "jumpings".

Possibly SwapMagic can modify resolutions like you say, but FMCB+ESR never does any such thing.

If you run an NTSC game on a PAL console by booting it through ESR after booting the console with FMCB, then that game is going to run in its original NTSC resolution just like it would when booted on an NTSC console without ESR methods.

When I boot SM disc while FMCB is NOT present, NTSC games dont have colors (without RGB cable), they are at full speed, in normal NTSC resolution and smooth, but when FMCB is present and I boot games using SM, NTSC games HAVE colors, they are at full speed, with normal NTSC resolution, but animation is not smooth.
Thats why I suppose that it has something to do with FMCB, but after testing it on friends console Im now not sure :/
Exactly same thing happens when I boot games using ESR.

If you get PAL resolution in an NTSC game this can only be due to some other cause, such as:

1: Modchip enforces fixed resolution
2: ISO was patched to enforce fixed resolution
3: Some special launcher (SwapMagic, Xploder, whatever) was used to enforce resolution
4: Some few games may actually test the console type themselves, and adapt to it

1. I dont have a modchip
2. I have ISOs from oryginal discs.
3. only FMCB and ESR
4. tested on many games

But the surprising thing about your case is that you seem unaware of what it is that causes your games to run in PAL, and I can only assure you again that FMCB is not responsible for doing that, as it has no such ability.

But why its not happening when I remove FMCB from my MC?

I dont know, Im really confused right now.
I dont thing that I can do something with it :/
Maybe adding an option to force NTSC or PAL signal (resolution and Hz) in FMCB could help, but I assume that this is to much work for coders. It would be waste of their time :/

I think that You are right, this problem affects only me :/ No one else reported such a problem. I would like to know whats causing it :/
Dont know...

Anyway, appreciate Your help.
THX MAN!

PS. sorry for my English, I'm from Poland, I better speak than write :P

[dlanor]

NTSC games are working with 60fps and PAL with 50fps. If NTSC game is displayed in PAL it has to loose 10fps. Game that looses 10fps can be slower (like while booting with SM) with smooth framerate or it can have its full speed, but then, these 10fps need to be cut or something like it. Its quite visible in PAL Tekken 5. when You select 60Hz, game is in NTSC and smooth, but when You select 50Hz, game is not as smooth - You can see some animation "jumpings".

FINALLY !!!

At last you have revealed that it is the game program itself that enforces 50Hz, after stating in several previous posts that this was done by FMCB, which is impossible. (That was perhaps just a misunderstanding caused by the language 'barrier'.)

So evidently this game (which I've never played) has an internal video mode selector, which is apparently glitched for some cases.

When I boot SM disc while FMCB is NOT present, NTSC games dont have colors (without RGB cable), they are at full speed, in normal NTSC resolution and smooth, but when FMCB is present and I boot games using SM, NTSC games HAVE colors, they are at full speed, with normal NTSC resolution, but animation is not smooth.

This part I can't understand.
In the earlier paragraph you say that you "select" 50 or 60 hz mode, and then you say again that it is FMCB which somehow enforces the video mode normally called PAL60 when implemented by mod-chips.

I repeat again, it is NOT the work of FMCB to enforce ANY resolution. FMCB itself only controls what resolutions are used at FMCB boot time, and then uses the resolution normal for the console region. But FMCB is no longer running when a game is launched. It leaves no resident parts whatsoever in the RAM. And since it is no longer present in the console RAM it no longer has any direct influence over the game programs that are launched.

The only program in the console at that time, and thus able to influence the video modes used, is the game program itself and the drivers it may have loaded. So the enforcing of a PAL60 mode is definitely done by code loaded from the game disc, and not by any part of FMCB. The big question here is why the game program 'felt' it necessary to use that resolution, and the only answer must be that it somehow tried to adapt to being run on a PAL console (assuming we're talking about an NTSC game).

Another big question is why it doesn't do so without FMCB active, since all the ways of checking console type should be identical. But this is where we might actually be able to find an explanation, as it is possible that FMCB still lacks some small system init compared to the original OSDSYS. So a US game which contains code to adapt to a european console (when it comes to colour modulation) might still not use that mode if it doesn't recognize any need for it.

Now what is it that we should look for here ?
When exactly is it that a PAL 60 Hz mode is required, rather than an NTSC 60 Hz mode ?

And the answer is that PAL60 is required when the TV set is connected by composite or S-Video cable on a PAL console, since this does not allow NTSC colour output from a PAL console to a PAL TV. But I'm not sure how or if a game is supposed to be able to test that connection, nor if this is in any way affected by FMCB. But it could have something to to with the FMCB system init. But that is just a guess...

Thats why I suppose that it has something to do with FMCB, but after testing it on friends console Im now not sure :/
Exactly same thing happens when I boot games using ESR.

It is very possible that it "has something to do with FMCB", as you say, but it is certainly not caused by FMCB. It is rather the video mode switching of the game which is done in some odd manner that doesn't work well with the game.

Possibly it is the basic implementation of their PAL60 mode that is flawed, causing the in-game timing to glitch. The basic timing difference between PAL60 and NTSC is that each PAL scanline must be exactly 64 microsecond (the colour modulation requires it), while the NTSC scanline is approximately 63.5 microseconds, and it may be that this throws the game engine's timing off somehow.

Note that I have played both genuine NTSC games and PAL games with a 50/60Hz selector, and for the latter I then always choose 60Hz, without any problems resulting from this. But the big difference in the latter case is that the latter games were designed to use PAL scanlines by default.

1. I dont have a modchip
2. I have ISOs from oryginal discs.
3. only FMCB and ESR

This is all good, and similar to how I use my v15,
though I do have a modchip on my v7.

4. tested on many games

This is what's odd.
You say you've done this on many games having the problem,
while I know for a fact that I never saw this problem ever...

But why its not happening when I remove FMCB from my MC?

I have no idea. For me no such difference is visible.

But then, I probably use different games than you do, so if it is primarily caused by those games, possibly reacting to something FMCB has affected, there is no reason for me ever to see it if my games don't react that way.

I dont know, Im really confused right now.
I dont thing that I can do something with it :/
Maybe adding an option to force NTSC or PAL signal (resolution and Hz) in FMCB could help, but I assume that this is to much work for coders. It would be waste of their time :/

Since FMCB is not a game launcher that kind of thing would be appropriate.

It would be more logical to add it to a game launcher like ESR, but I doubt that ffgriever is very interested in doing that.

I think that You are right, this problem affects only me :/ No one else reported such a problem.

Well, there's yoshi314, though I'm not sure if your problems are identical...

I would like to know whats causing it :/
Dont know...

Neither do I...

PS. sorry for my English, I'm from Poland, I better speak than write :P

That's nothing to worry about. It will get better with time and practice.
I'm swedish myself, but I've had daily practice in english for many years now.

Best regards: dlanor

[yoshi314]

Maybe thats the problem? Signal converted from 60Hz to 50Hz works as 50, but the speed of the game is same as on NTSC. This may give this issues :/
When NTSC games are coverted to PAL with SwapMagic, they are simply slower (this 10 fps makes difference) but there are no frames loosing.

i'm not converting my games. my tv can handle both ntsc and pal. an it even seems to like ntsc ones more, as there is some small flicker with pal games sometimes.

when i compared performance of few games with youtube recordings the only similarity i found was from ffx, which performed pretty badly when there were multiple detailed character models on screen, regardless of the game region.

that makes me feel like there's something wrong with my ps2. it also happened on older v4 console.

[DariuszG]

FINALLY !!!

At last you have revealed that it is the game program itself that enforces 50Hz, after stating in several previous posts that this was done by FMCB, which is impossible. (That was perhaps just a misunderstanding caused by the language 'barrier'.)

So evidently this game (which I've never played) has an internal video mode selector, which is apparently glitched for some cases.

Tekken 5 was just an example, because programmers were never chanching game speed in PAL version (PAL Tekken Tag was 10fps slower than NTSC TTT) until Tekken 5, and keeping full speed is occupy by loosing framerate smoothness. You can clearly observe it, because in TK5 You have video mode selector - so its easy to switch between.
Other games I was talking about dont have video selector (Burnout Revenge, Guitar Hero, Time Splitters Future Perfect, Final Fantasy XII...).

[TnA]

It is quite possible, that the fmcb-system-init still fails (or do it in-correct) in some cases.
FMCB 1.8 is the first version, which have a complete system-init (in my opinion), but it might still have bugs and fail on specific models/regions/...

It also remembers me to a bug H4ndy and me had, while I made a first FMCB-Install for him.

Forced NTSC in OSD was in color (but 60Hz!), while forced NTSC in games were in black&white/grey-scale (also 60Hz).
V-Mode-Force for Games was done by "Xploder HDTV-Player".

[DariuszG]

Forced NTSC in OSD was in color (but 60Hz!), while forced NTSC in games were in black&white/grey-scale (also 60Hz).

When I force NTSC in FMCB configurator, OSD is in color (also 60Hz).
Games with forced NTSC are also in color and also 60Hz.
When I remove FMCB everything is just like it schould be - NTSC games are black and white.
When NTSC games are black and white there are no frames loosing, but when I use FMCB and there are colors, framerate is unstable.

Maybe this two cases (my and Yours) has something in common?

EDIT:
Ive tried to patch NTSC games with NTSC2PAL patcher (again) but this time with couple variations:
NTSC to PAL patched - still framerate problems
PAL to NTSC patched - framerate problems and colors on PAL TV without RGB cable
NTSC to PAL with selector: PAL with Yfix, PAL without Yfix, NTSC - framerate problems in all cases

Is it possible that I modified somehow PS2 bios (kernel?)? Is it possible to modify it? Or its read only?
Maybe FMCB lefts some residental code in PS2 memory?