How are files laid out in a backup? File Layout/Optimization.

[ncasebee]

When you back up a PS2 Dvd game, how are the files laid out? Are file layout and optimization preserved?

I ask this question because a couple of xbox-scene people are working on a way to keep file layout's and optimizations when making a backup. Traditionally an Xbox ISO just lays the files out in alphabetical order, forgetting all optimziations. These optimizations are important to load times, noise, and streaming.

This is also different with an xbox, because xbox copies are not made directly on the computer. Files are FTP'ed from the Xbox, and then reassembled on the computer, and burned.

So when you make a copy of a PS2 game (Dvd)with Nero or DVD Decryptor does it keep file layout and optimization? How can it do this if PS2 games are spread across two layers, and the backup fits all these files into the same 1 layer.

I'm talking about DVD PS2 games.
I assume with PS1 and CD PS2 games, they are 1:1 copies.

Are PS2 Dvd games spread across both layers? Heck are they single layer or dual layer? I don't know. I know all Xbox games are Dual Layer DVD's.
Any input would be great.

[uns97]

And if I were a copy protection maker I'd check your files LBA address and you might have an unusable disk, or you might cry for a cracker to remove this simple protection... Why do you care about it ? Xbox games have to be altered as those disks cannot be copied directly with a simple burner. You really think if those could be copied directly anyone would give a single shit to "file" optimaziton ?? Most games that are released by groups do not have any optimization, and most do not need any. The ones that might need are BADLY programmed craps, and if you had 3000 files there is not really usable optimization, the loading times and the search for the files will always take a lot of time. *because of the extremle high seek times of the optical drives* Especially when they put 1000 files into one directory. I can accept optimization when you deal with crosslinked files, but that is rare. As when dealing with PS2 disks, you can grab the files, rearrange them and regenerate the image, BUT: as said earlier any protection that checks for LBAs, DISK name and other DISK paramteres will fail, and so there might be several problems with the backup. And in reality this type of protection is just the easiest one, so I would not care about this optimiaztion that much when we can do a full backup in minutes without that much problem. Thank God, Sony does not use some of the latest copy protections on the PS2 disks, there might be several unworking games, and we should have to wait for weeks/months for someone to create a working crack. *no, I have been out of that bussines for quite a long time*

Most PS2 games are single layer disks, there are a few games that use the 2 layers. Xbox disks are written in a different way, would be too technical to go into that, you can read many things about it on any Xbox board.

regards, Stephen

[ncasebee]

Ok. Let's answer this question. Is a PS2 backup using Nero, or Dvd Decryptor 1:1. I don't want to optimze anything. I guess thats the wrong word. I just want to know if the discs are 1:1.

[uns97]

Nero and DVDDecrypter will produce 1:1 backups and everything will be the same on the target and the source disk. (file structure, file names, disk name, disk parameters, and so on...) The problem is that what you too realised that if you have an unoptimized disk, 1:1 copy will not change that. As I said, unfortunatelly there is no GOOD solution for this, as with 1000+ files in one directory there is no working optimization, no matter what you try. Seek times are so high, data access will take a lot of time. Usually a good solution is using ONE big file with index tables *keeping it into the memory*, so you do not have to look up into the directory tree finding the start address (+lenght, etc infos) of the file. Unfortunatelly none really cares that much about file/disk optimization, thought as you too said this could help (a bit). I wonder why does loading of a 10-20 mb file take 1/2 minute, when in reality that could be done in seconds... I wonder why does a game like GTA3 Vice city load almost a hundred seconds (at start), when there happens nothing. This is usually the way today programmers give a **** about loading times and program optimizations, they suggest to buy a faster hardware and you are ok, otherwise... If you are in the Xbox scene, you could see the SimpleX utility written in pure asm, 20 kbyte, and well much faster than any "miracle" programs like Qwix, Craxtion and others, and well those sizes are megabytes and NOT some kilobytes. This simply proves if one really wanted to write WORKING and FAST programs, it could be done, of course would take some more time but a lot of resources could be saved.

regards, Stephen

[jung_rob]

WOW! so technical, i got lost, hehe!

[ncasebee]

I should have never used the word "optimze." I'm not worried about that. I was just concerned that the backup was performing like the original. As with the aswer of 1:1, I now know this to be true.

See with Xbox, the backup looks NOTHING like the original. File's are totally rearranged if I'm correct. That's why I was wondering. You've answered my question. So PS2 Dvd's are burnt on single layer media, an only occupy a single layer, then that's why we can do a 1:1. If data was spread across two layers,but still less than 4.7gb, then rearranging would have to be done. Do you see where I'm coming from.

So: PS2 Dvd games, are single layer or only occupy the first layer of a double layer disc.
Ps2 Dvd Backup's created with DVD Decryptor or Nero are 1:1.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Are there any tools, that will tell you if a DVD is dual layer, and illustrate where the data is on both layers.

[uns97]

Well, yes there are tools, one of them is DVDInfoPro, that tells you some info about the DVD you inserted. (one of this info is the number of layers).

You are correct about the Xbox disks, but there is something I have to make clear about PS2 disks.

Most DVD based PS2 games are single layer DVDs that can easily be copied with Nero, DVDDecrypter and so on. There are a few that have some kind of heavy copy protections and need to be patched. Then a patched image is burnt back to the dvd-r and of course from that time you can use any software to do a working backup of that ALREADY patched disk. (the original won't work, as that contains the protection). (of course heavy leechers won't meet that many originals, and the warez on the net are already (or at least they should be) cracked)

The problem is that there are a few games that are based on dual layer disks. Then you have three choices.

a, burn that onto a DVD+R DL disk and hope that it will work
b, rip that into two dvd-r's (there are tutorials how to do it, OR the easier thing is to get the stuff that other teams already ripped)
c, buy the original

Dual layer is not for copy protection, but as there are so much data on the disk, that it cannot be stored on a single 4.38 GB disk, they use also the second layer for data storage. Of course you could fill up the disk with garbage to fill the 1st layer and so the disk would be dual layer disk *garbage on the first layer and data on the second one or vice versa* but there is not that much sense of that. As that would be good against 1:1 copies and against beginers, but it won't help against real pirates, who will make a rip of that, remove the garbage, and then the game will fit onto ONE layer, make a backup onto dvd-r, put that on the net, and well it's already spreaded and really none will care about how they protected the original disk. Copy protection is always a wasted time, it just deppends on time and knowledge and everything can be removed/cracked. Of course they could cause some strange happenings *for example checking the number of layers later in the game* but that (probably) would need some hardware modifications in the console itself, and well later a patch from the cracker could cure this problem so this would be just a little time for the real pirates to get it fixed. So all in all, dual layer as a copy protection costs more than it could earn.

Microsoft with Xbox has choosen another way trying to stop pirates from copying their disks, to be honest with no luck. Ok, the originals can not be copied directly, but it can be done via ftp and a backup can be copied 1:1 so there is nothing that could stop piracy this way. Again, just my thought is that there would be not such a success in game console world if disks were uncopiable. Also support for games are mostly zero, while they cost so much, piracy cannot be really stopped, especially with such sily thougths like copy protections and so on.

regards, Stephen