Some odd results on my brand-new PS3.

[dlanor]

I can do an MD5 of the sub channel files of those games if you like. I rip them with Clone CD 4.2.0.2. Also, if I can test, my copies of the mentioned FF games are in mint condition, so I know for fact that no system should have issues booting them if they are compatible.

Edit - Adding MD5 checksums of .sub files of each disc for FF8 and FF9

ff8d1.sub - FF02458762A833B649FE260BC7DF3D5E
ff8d2.sub - 7FCC4DFEC9506CB7BD32A76625910BA9
ff8d3.sub - 419114A87E7E2889735A9C9456C06CA5
ff8d4.sub - 033662681DF044CF3088FD3E52243EEB

ff9d1.sub - 56319A31DBE54D8C1D143C741BBD5606
ff9d2.sub - 391D951A38238BF5C2FAB53DD4376ABD
ff9d3.sub - 53FEAEBE99879E496A6F5888CFD9413A
ff9d4.sub - 8D360D79AD5255055D8649CE458F0FA7

Thank you for your efforts, but right now I have no idea what I could use those checksums for since I don't have such discs for comparison with. But I saved these sums for reference anyway.

My corresponding discs are UK PAL versions, so they are bound to be different, though I guess it can't hurt to check them anyway. If the subchannel data is entirely game-engine dependent it just might be identical even for a different region release, though I strongly doubt it.

I would be more interested in seeing test results for those discs (and FF7 for comparison) on a slim PS3.

sk8rping already proved that my theory does not apply to the fat PS3 he has, but we know that a lot of hardware changes have been made between these models. And we also know that Sony started with high ambitions of full compatibility to both PS2 and PS1, though those ambitions were later scrapped. So I suspect that somewhere in the hardware changes from the old fat PS3 to the present model, they may have lost track of the subchannel abilities, either in the BD drive itself, or in the device drivers for it.

But if anyone at all can run FF8/FF9 and/or other subchannel-protected games on a slim PS3 of my model, then that clearly destroys the validity of my theory. So results of such tests are what is now needed, to either disprove that theory or partially strengthen its validity (as it takes far more results to prove such a thing than to disprove it).

Best regards: dlanor

[Bootlegninja]

I only posted them to have some idea if the subchannel information was the same for both NTSC U/C and UK PAL versions. Only trying to establish a point of reference to narrow down the problem of the discs not booting properly on your PS3.

I may have access to one Slim PS3. Although right now, I'm not sure what version firmware it has on it. I'll have to contact a co-worker soon and find out.

[dlanor]

I only posted them to have some idea if the subchannel information was the same for both NTSC U/C and UK PAL versions. Only trying to establish a point of reference to narrow down the problem of the discs not booting properly on your PS3.

I see, and I will do the MD5 checks on my own discs too later, but I'm too tired right now to do reliable work. (It's now 09:14 AM here, and I'm not up early... I never went to bed last night)

I may have access to one Slim PS3. Although right now, I'm not sure what version firmware it has on it. I'll have to contact a co-worker soon and find out.

Fine. Though that reminds me of one test it is now too late for me to do.
I should of course have done the testing of PS1 games also with the old firmware, before installing the new one. But at that time I had not yet thought of doing such tests, and now it is too late as we can't reverse an upgrade.

Best regards: dlanor

[Azhrael]

I know that these models have no PS2 compatibility, but I wanted to see if at least PS1 games worked well, so I got out my PS1 Final Fantasy collection (all original discs) and first tried FF7, which worked perfectly, even able to load some of my old gamesaves that I had managed to transfer to a virtual PS1 MC in the PS3.

But then I tried the same thing with my discs for FF8 and FF9 with near total failure.

The console was able to read the CDs well enough to identify them as PS1 CDs, and when I selected that disc icon and pressed X it also proceeded to boot them, with successful loading and display of the usual PS1 logo, but thereafter I got nothing but BSOD forever.

The console itself was not crashed, though the PS1 emulation was completely frozen, so I could easily terminate that to get back to the main menu again, and since there was no way to shake the PS1 booting loose from that frozen state, that is how I had to end each such attempt.

And I got the same result for all eight of those FF8 and FF9 discs, though they all boot perfectly well on a real PS2 or PS1, just like the three FF7 discs that work fine on the PS3.

Just tested out on my CECH-2001A (also with FW3.41), and all three games play without any lockups. I can't imagine the region difference would be an issue, so I'm unsure where the problem would be originating from, other than possibly a fault in the hardware.

[NoWayOut]

Okay dlanor, I just tested FF8 (UK original non platinum) on my CECH2003A slim uk model and get the same results as you: psx logo then bsod on all 4 discs. I don't have FF9 except from PSN so I can't test that.

I do know that the anti-piracy measures on the PAL versions of FF8 were different than NTSC, possibly because they had extra time to implement it due to the PAL conversion process, or maybe for other reasons. That would explain why US versions works but not our PAL versions.

To help in your investigation of whether sub-channel data is causing this, this page might help in conjunction with a list of games known to use sub-channel anti-piracy measures. (unfortunately there does not seem to be a similar compatibilty page on the European PS3 site)

Edited to add: forgot to mention, I tested on fw 3.41

[dlanor]

Just tested out on my CECH-2001A (also with FW3.41), and all three games play without any lockups. I can't imagine the region difference would be an issue, so I'm unsure where the problem would be originating from, other than possibly a fault in the hardware.

Exactly, so right now my theory is modified to be that the BD-player in 2004A differs from those in earlier models, and only has partial compatibility with CD, having dropped (or broken) subchannel support.

Like I said earlier, this subchannel use is a feature unique to CD, so never used with the main media a BD drive was designed for (neither with DVD nor BD), so it would only be missed by those using rather old CDs from the time when subchannel use was a popular anti-copying measure. (Long abandoned as it was soon circumvented.)

What I'd really need now is for someone else with a CECH-2004A model PS3 to perform similar tests both with these games and any others known to use subchannel protection. Though some games are tricky to test, as they don't use the protection at boot or for intros, but wait until in-game to do it... So that is when I'd expect them to freeze up.

Confirmation of some kind from other users is needed to determine if this theory is true or not, and if it turns out to be not true, then I must of course demand a new PS3 from the GameStop shop where I bought this one.

Because my CDs are in near-mint condition. I've taken very good care of them so the only damage at all is that they are a little worn from the long hours of use it takes to play any good RPG. They boot on all of my consoles and also on PC with emulation, so there is no good reason why they should not also boot on the PS3. So either my theory is right, or that particular BD drive is part broken, though it works fine for all other discs I've tried, whether CD, DVD, or BD.

Best regards: dlanor

[dlanor]

Okay dlanor, I just tested FF8 (UK original non platinum) on my CECH2003A slim uk model and get the same results as you: psx logo then bsod on all 4 discs. I don't have FF9 except from PSN so I can't test that.

Finally a test result that partially confirms mine, and for a console closer to mine in age (making common hardware more likely).

As you say, games from PSN are obviously not relevant here, as they will not perform any physical disc checking of this kind. Only PS1 games on original release discs are of interest.

I do know that the anti-piracy measures on the PAL versions of FF8 were different than NTSC, possibly because they had extra time to implement it due to the PAL conversion process, or maybe for other reasons. That would explain why US versions works but not our PAL versions.

Apparently so. I was not really sure about whether that release had any subchannel use or not, but I browsed around a while and found some sites that seem to be saying that it is only the Euro versions of both FF8 and FF9 that use subchannel protection, though I could have sworn that some earlier source (can't remember which now) stated that FF9 (US) did so as well.

But this is all the better confirmation of my theory, as it means that all the success reports of running both those games in US versions do not contradict my theory at all, but rather confirm that part of it which says that games without subchannel use should have no such problems.

To help in your investigation of whether sub-channel data is causing this, this page might help

Good idea, but unfortunately not working.
Apparently they never got around to adding a proper PS1 database.

For example, if I enter "Grandia", it finds entries for the PS2 games "Grandia II", "Grandia Xtreme", "Grandia III", but nothing on the original PS1 game "Grandia"

And it's the same thing with "Final Fantasy", showing only the PS2 games.

Trying to use more specific names also failed to show PS1 games, as a search for "Final Fantasy VII" only brought up an entry for "Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII"

in conjunction with a list of games known to use sub-channel anti-piracy measures.

Another good idea, and this would of course be good to have, but I have no clue where to find any, so I guess I'd have to collect info for it and make such a list myself. That's unless you happen to know where I can find one.
Edit: I have now found such a list, as mentioned in my next post.

(unfortunately there does not seem to be a similar compatibilty page on the European PS3 site)

That would have been a serious loss only if it worked for PS1 games.

Btw: In selecting PS3 model for that compatibility checker I was only allowed to choose between two of them, presumably both being models with PS2 compatibility, which further confirms the idea that they only implemented the database for PS2 games.

Edited to add: forgot to mention, I tested on fw 3.41

That's good to know as it is the same that I use, so all generic bios differencies should be excluded, and most device driver differencies as well. Except for device drivers that may be different if our BD hardware differs, with the bios choosing different drivers to suit the hardware found. But for us a bug in a device driver or a bug in the BD drive itself can not be separated anyway, as we can never test them independently. So we can only class both as a problem due to BD drive (which it is in either case).

Thanks for your report! But now we really need someone else to confirm this with tests of additional games having subchannel protection, and ths is where a list of the kind you mentioned would be really useful.

Best regards: dlanor

[dlanor]

Like the title of this post says, I have now definitely confirmed that the reason why my PS3 fails to launch several PS1 games in mint condition is that the BD drive is unable to properly read the subchannel data as required for those particular games, due to their copy protection methods that use abnormal subchannel data for disc validation.

At first this was only a theory after observing that some game discs that went BSOD after booting the PS1 logo all had subchannel-protection. But at that time I could not make any valid conclusion about it, as so many other things can cause a BSOD after display of the PS1 logo and before anything is displayed by the game code, since that is the time when the main program file of the game is to be launched. So anything which crashes the program launch will give an identical BSOD.

But after searching for a while I realized that I had two games with delayed activation of the subchannel-protection, these being "Vagrant Story (UK) == SLES-02754, and "Saga Frontier 2 (UK)" == SLES-02112.

Both of these games allow the initial intro movies to play without any subchannel protection, but thereafter they have different behaviour.

Saga Frontier 2 has a rather long series of movie scenes until King Gustave XII has arrived home to name his newborn son Gustave XIII, shortly after which the scenes end at which point the user normally would reach the game's first menu (an optional gamesave opportunity), but that is where the protection is activated so that is where my PS3 freezes on a black screen. And this alone is a very strong confirmation of my theory, as I know from experience that PS1 Emulators also freeze at exactly the same point if their subchannel support is not active.

Vagrant Story on the other hand has a shorter Intro movie, after which the user does reach the startup menu, still with protection inactive. And here it is even possible to use the menu commands (turning Vibration on/off etc), but when using "New Game" (and presumably when loading a gamesave) the game activates the subchannel protection, so that is where my PS3 freezes for this game. But this time with the words "Now Loading" on the screen. And this behaviour also matches that of a PS1 emulator running the same game disc with subchannel support disabled.

And when I add these results together I can no longer accept any alternative to the conclusion that my theory was correct and my BD drive is indeed incapable of reading the correct subchannel data for these discs. I can't think of any other cause for such a perfect match between the 'points of freezing' in all these tests and in corresponding tests of emulators with subchannel support disabled. The connection between the freezing and such subchannel protection is definite.

In this work I also found a good list of games indicating which had such protection and which did not, and this further clarified why US users have not noticed this connection, as only rather few US games (of those I checked anyway) have this kind of protection, even when the corresponding Euro releases of the same game do have such protection.

The list I am here referring to is the long unsupported but still working web page found here. This shows that both FF8 and FF9 had subchannel protection only in Europe, as did Vagrant story too, though the US FF9 sems to have had some other protection, not subchannel-based. But apparently "Saga Frontier 2" did have subchannel protection in all regions, so that is one game which could be used to verify the same problem for US users. Just remember that you have to wait for the point after the King has named his son until the problem can strike (at least if you start without any gamesaves, like I did).


Still unproven:
None of the above is yet proven for any other console than my CECH-2004A.
So we need tests for all PS3 models still. And we must be prepared for contradictory results in some of them, as it is possible that some of the models have a BD drive which can read subchannels properly.

Then again, it is also possible that this is a generic problem with the BD drive designs, as some overambitious drive designers may have decided that it would be a good idea to implement error correction for subchannel data, in which case that is what causes the problem. Like I said before, the CD subchannel copy protection methods all rely on using non-standard data, and if this is error-corrected in reading, then proper reading of the protection data is clearly impossible. And this just might apply to ALL the BD drives.

Best regards: dlanor