DMS 3 legality

[knowledgeiv]

I'm new to the PS2 scene, so I am unsure of the legality of PS2 mods. I know that some of the BIOS avaiilable for Xbox console mods are illegal, since they are built using M$ copyrighted code.

I am against piracy, but don't see anything wrong with installing a modchip to unlock more features from a console...although M$ or Sony would likely say otherwise.

So here is my question:
Is the DMS 3 shipped blank or is the programming on the chip completely legal (In the USA)?

...I have searched and will continue to search, but have yet to find a definative answer on this.

[UltraDude]

the DMS3 does not flash the ps2 bios..only its own to upgrade the chip...if you are really concerned about legalty..why install a mod? it's illegal..dont matter what u see of it. LMAO

[knowledgeiv]

I am really just worried about reselling the DMS 3.

I know I am probably over-reacting, but ISONEWS just got shutdown: http://www.cybercrime.gov/rocciPlea.htm
But they were selling an Enigma modchip (with illegal BIOS) on a site dedicated to warez. I'm sure it was a combination of the 2 which caused the shutdown, but I just can't be too careful.

If there is any chance at all that the DMS 3 is not legal in the US for resell, I'll refuse the shipment and take it off my site.

[knowledgeiv]

[everyone points and laughs at the n00b]

Yea, it was the part about the Sony BIOS code being used in the DMS 3 that I wasn't sure about, but that's what I thought. I feel much more at ease now.

[/everyone points and laughs at the n00b] :D

I never actually visited ISONEWS until today...I'm really surprised they lasted this long. The part that got me worked up about the whole thing was the fact that it was about modchips. But I also just read on there that it was just the one guy who got busted...the other staff over there had told him that selling mods on the site was a bad idea and the DOJ proved them right.

[Yu-Gi-Oh!]

A "mod" device can be or it may not be "illegal", it depends if such law(s) are in effect in your hometown!

[huh! illegal... nah! good for the economy! Yep!]

Hmmm...

Yu-Gi-Oh!

[crimsonghost]

Technically they are against the law according to the DCMA. On slashdot there are many people with lots of knowledge you can read the forums on the subject for more information.

[knowledgeiv]

From my understanding, it would be how the end user used such a device which would make it illegal according to the DCMA. Or in other words...how the reseller advertises that product to be used by the end user.

Personally, I want a DMS 3 modded PS2 to run apps off a memory card...like the media player. I'm not sure what the DCMA would say about that. Also, I just want something new to mod for the fun of it.

[precisionmods]

Yeah, the ISONEWS thing had me second thinking what we are doing but a few things come to mind:

1. We don't make the chips. I have no ideal how they work, I just solder according to the diagrams.
2. There are many things that can be used for illegal activity. Guns, cars, knives, etc. You cannot control what the person does with their console after you mod it.

[knowledgeiv]

precisionmods, that's the way I see it too, but the real question is... how Sony or M$ sees it.

I've just been doing some reading on the DCMA and it's a really f@#$ed up law...makes me feel like I'm in a communist country or something. Except instead of every aspect of life being run by the government, it's being run by big corporations like Sony and M$.

[KillerSpaz]

I would say that the manufactoring/production/marketing of a "mod" product is not illegal in its own... however, the USE of the product does represent an illegal content... That is, you're using it to play copied games, correct? There'd really be no other reason... You know just as well as I do that if you buy a game, it's most likely going to last you the length of the gaming system, if not longer.... Especially if you mod it!!

[precisionmods]

Originally posted by knowledgeiv
precisionmods, that's the way I see it too, but the real question is... how Sony or M$ sees it.

I've just been doing some reading on the DCMA and it's a really f@#$ed up law...makes me feel like I'm in a communist country or something. Except instead of every aspect of life being run by the government, it's being run by big corporations like Sony and M$.

See that's the thing. M$ and $ony are NOT the law. Nor should they tell or dictate to us what they think is right. The law is what's on the books. And the DMCA is somewhat open to interpretation. If they want to make mods illegal, then they need to pass a law making it so. Until then, it's not illegal.

But, I am not sure where the DOJ's case against ISONEWS will lead all of us.

[jy96]

Hm . . . This is a good question.
Even if everyone was using the modchip for legal reasons like media player, or protecting end users valuable game collections, Sony/Mirosoft/Game Developers will still go after the modchip. Because of the sole fact that it opens the door to piracy. And the DMCA, because it is so vague, will give them a legal weapon to remove it from the market. However, small reseller should not have anything to worry about. The most that would happen is a court injunction would be issued to prohibit the reseller from selling that product and a fine if damages are determined. The ppl they really want to shut down badly are the manufacturers. Too bad they are in countries with weak copyright laws. Otherwise we could witness some really spectacular legal fireworks. :)

As for the legality of the modchip, there are legitimate reasons for this device (I have mentioned a few above). Its questionable legality lies on its protential for misuse. The argument could be that Sony intentionally placed security measures into their consoles to prevent ppl from misusing their product or using their product for purposes other than what sony had intended. This device remove those security thus changing the original purpose of the product. And now if they can prove that the modify product is harmful financially(not too hard) or physically, then I can see how they would have a solid case.

I haven't seen a case involving modchip in the states so everything I just said is speculation. Maybe some brave(insane) modchip manufacturer would be willing to open operations in the US?;)

[knowledgeiv]

Someone over at another forum brought up a good point...

Under the DMCA, it would be illegal to backup a CD collection you own, yet the Xbox comes with this feature built into it from M$.

...so where is the line drawn...where big business says to. grrr

The more I think about this, the more pissed I get. I've contemplated taking a sledge hammer to my Xbox and nuking all of my games (which are orignal, retail, btw, M$), video taping the whole thing and sending it in to M$.

[Fat_Mike]

Now that would be pretty funny actually:) Be sure to post the video if you ever decide to do it.

[knowledgeiv]

Yea, it would be especially funny for all the PS2 guys here. lol

I'm a pretty calm person, so it would probably never actually happen, but when I get mad....I get REALLY mad. I think I get it from my Dad. Once when I was young, my Dad had a shop vac that kept acting up, so he took it out into the back yard along with his shotgun and blew the hell out of it.

[Sephiroth]

The Enigmah modchip in the iSONEWS.com case is similar to the PS2 modchips and does not contain copyright code or a "hacked" BIOS. It also uses patching routines. The only reason the DOJ has a case is because he was openly promoting it to play pirated software, not homebrew titles (which btw most are illegal anyway as they are made with pirated XDK's).

Either way, in the US you are pretty much screwed by the DMCA although as a small reseller you shouldn't need to worry.

I don't think anyone should worry about iSONEWS though. They were being monitored for quite some time, it was bound to happen.

[KillerSpaz]

speaking of hombrew titles, where can you find these??

[Yu-Gi-Oh!]

Any Aussies here to refresh my memory on this issue!

Hmmm...

Yu-Gi-Oh!

[Yu-Gi-Oh!]

Any Aussies here to refresh my memory on this issue!
(Laws in Australia!)

Hmmm...

Yu-Gi-Oh!

[ThAD0oD]

well i posted most of this in the thread in the general ps2 section, but here goes again.

ill probably be repeating other people, but it'll just be easier all together.

now the DMS3 might be bordering on illegal, because of DVD region free and macrovision removal, but i dont know if defeating that is illegal, so lets assume they arent illegal (eventhough that might not be the case)

the DMS3 as a ps2 modchip isnt illegal. the flash is to flash the DMS3's BIOS. but that's what makes the mod, what & where it patches to make backups/imports work. It isnt illegal.

The flash on the xbox modchips however, is a hacked version of the xbox's BIOS, not the chip's function. So that is illegal.

Modding your system isnt illegal, because its your property and you are free to do what you want with it.

The illegal part comes into when you defeat copyright protection (intellecutal property) for your personal use. It is illegal to backup a game, of which you dont own the original.

It's been said that under the DMCA, its illegal to backup an original you own, well it actually isnt. One of my brother's best friends is a lawyer, who conviently specializes in the matter of copyright infringment etc..., and i have talked to him on the matter. As long as you can prove that you haven't altered the contents of the backup from the original, then it is completely legal.

Playing imports is legal, since it doesnt defeat or infringe upon any copyright protection - you are only just telling the console to play something that isnt in your region. That isnt illegal by any means.

So that means, that the whole of a modchip cant be illegal. Since the DOJ or FBI or anyone cant prove that who you are selling your modchip to is making illegal backups, they cant do anything. Even if they are, you are selling them a legit product. What they do with the product - illegal or not - is on their own account, not yours, since you sold them it for legit uses.

Homebrew apps dont really fall into a category, since they dont have any association with SCEI, so its legit by cause of innocent until proven guilty (that may not be a law in other countries, but homebrew apps are still legit for other reasons in different countries).

SO.... taking out the Region Free and Macro, the chip is perfectly legal.

I'll research some more on the macro & region free, and post results.

Now thats an essay for ya :).

[ThAD0oD]

ah, never thought of that :)

so that rules out region free :)

but macro is a dvd protection scheme, is it not?

[Yu-Gi-Oh!]

Like I said before it varies... an US Military base in another Country have different rules\laws than the locals!

Kiddos!

Hmmm...

Yu-Gi-Oh!

[dust4dust]

the way i see it was simple

he was charged and pleady guilty for supply modchips for warez games

modchips are ok but not to play warez

[ThAD0oD]

in simple terms - yep thats it.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by ThAD0oD
ah, never thought of that :)

so that rules out region free :)

but macro is a dvd protection scheme, is it not?

Yes, Macrovision is classed as a copyright protection measure and therefore falls under the DMCA.

The appeal by Sony in the Australian case is still pending. Latest details are HERE (http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6039941%5E15330%5E%5Enbv%5E15306%2D15319,00 .html)

[knowledgeiv]

See, this is the real problem with the DMCA...everyone has a different interpretation of it.

I have temporarily shutdown all sales of modchips on my site, but may return to selling them after speaking with a lawyer who fully understands the DMCA.

[jy96]

Originally posted by ThAD0oD
. . .
now the DMS3 might be bordering on illegal, because of DVD region free and macrovision removal, but i dont know if defeating that is illegal, so lets assume they arent illegal (eventhough that might not be the case)

the DMS3 as a ps2 modchip isnt illegal. the flash is to flash the DMS3's BIOS. but that's what makes the mod, what & where it patches to make backups/imports work. It isnt illegal.

. . .

Agreed removing the macrovision is illegal under the DMCA. However, making it region free is not illegal under DMCA. However, it will piss off sony and probably get someone sued because it screws up the marketing of DVDs.

This is where we divert in opinions. The ps2 modchip is illegal under the DMCA because "No person shall circumvent a technological
measure that effectively controls access to a work protected
H. R. 2281?5
under this title. . . ??(A) to ?circumvent a technological measure? means to
descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work,
or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair
a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright
owner." Quoted from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act . The modchip can be argued as a device that circumvent the protection built in to the console by sony to protect copyrighted material. Since the modchip device impairs this protection although not removing it, it still illegal under the DMCA. I understand the intent of this law, which is to stop piracy but my question is doesn't the DMCA tramples over the consumers right to 'Fair Use'. I want to make backups of my very expensive video game and video collection which is absolutely legal. However, the DMCA considers the device, I purchase and install to make the backup happen, illegal . Kind of a catch-22, isn't?

[knowledgeiv]

jy96, it is catch-22. I believe the DMCA does take away the consumers right to fair use. Not even to mention wanting to backup your game collection, but running homebrew apps would also be considered illegal according to the DMCA.

I am an honest consumer. No, I won't lie and say that I haven't downloaded any games, but if I liked that game, I bought it. I am intelligent enough to have any game or piece of software I want without paying for it, but I choose to purchase quality products to help fuel the economy.

Right now, I am considering writing to my congressman and representative about modchips, although I doubt it would do much good. I may also boycott all M$ and $ony products that I can do without until something is done.

This whole sequence of events just pisses me off. :grr:

[jy96]

Originally posted by knowledgeiv
jy96, it is catch-22. I believe the DMCA does take away the consumers right to fair use. Not even to mention wanting to backup your game collection, but running homebrew apps would also be considered illegal according to the DMCA.

I am an honest consumer. No, I won't lie and say that I haven't downloaded any games, but if I liked that game, I bought it. I am intelligent enough to have any game or piece of software I want without paying for it, but I choose to purchase quality products to help fuel the economy.

Right now, I am considering writing to my congressman and representative about modchips, although I doubt it would do much good. I may also boycott all M$ and $ony products that I can do without until something is done.

This whole sequence of events just pisses me off. :grr:

I couldn't have put it better. The DMCA does take away a lot of your rights as a consumer.

Homebrew are not illegal because they are not copyrighted material.
100% agreed, buy your games to support the software developers and the economy.

Writing your congressman and representative couldn't hurt but they would probably be more receptive to those with the biggest wallets like Disney.

Boycotting all M$ and $ony products. Are sure about that? That is a extremely long list of products you will be avoiding. I hope you like linux because that would be the only other viable operating system for your pc if you boycott microsoft.;)