PS3 upscaling issue fixable or not?

[HPotter]

This is probobly one of the main reasons that I'm not buying a PS3 yet. Does anyone know if there is a way Sony can fix this issue without and add on device? I really think they missed the boat by not putting a chip in a 700.00 piece of hardware to upscale games. Yes I have seen PS2 games played on a PS3 and they look like crap. I have also heard that if your television doesn't support 1080p that blueray movies will be shown in 480 is this true?

[Lachlan]

Blu-Ray movies output in 480p if your TV doesn't support 1080i OR p, most people should have a tv capable of atleast 1080i if you want to really experience the system as it's supposed to be experienced.

PS2 games look normal on the PS3 IMO, not much difference at all here.
720P is really the "must have" TV resolution for a PS3 setup as all PS3 games support it and most only go that far so really it's not sony's problem if you don't have a TV that's not capable of that resolution.
If your TV supports 1080i then games that support 1080i should run at 1080i instead of reverting back to 480p.

When the PS3 is launched in Europe/Australia sony will have a new firmware out that will fix some problems such as being able to download in the background and pause downloads so hopefully it might fix these resolution problems but as far as I know it's not capable of doing so.

[ken9]

mmmhmm interesting i tryed playing my ps3 on a normal analog tv and compared to my lcd hdtv, it looks the same.... its only a bit sharper...but besides tat the lighting, texturing, etc are the same...

[Maj. Jaq@ss]

I have to agree with the OP that some ps2 games look like ass on ps3. Prime example FFXI over HDMI at 1080i. Even when you reduce the setting to 480 it is very pixelated and blocky, it looked much better using component from the ps2 console.

IMO if it is not a HD game you are better off using a component cable.

~Jaq@ss ~

[ChldsPlay]

It's not the cable, it's the PS3. It doesn't like 480i games.

[Den Leiw]

I believe Sony will come up with a solution before the European launch


In Sony, we trust XD

[Lachlan]

Most of the time non HD signals on HDTV's won't look flash so it's partly to do with the PS3 and your TV.

[madh83]

You know, on pcs there are a lot of software algorithms or decoding software that deal with upscaling videos we watch. These products are pretty common, like divx, xvid, and even many dvd playback programs. Many of these programs rely solely on the processor to work. Since the ps3 has 6 cores in its processor IIRC and all the released games have yet to use them all it may be possible to simply update the firmware and make one of the cores perform scaling duties. And in the future when games start using all cores they could just make 1080i a mandatory resolution so there won't be a need for scaling. Of course the processor on a pc is more suited for a variety of tasks while the processor on the ps3 is more specific in its job. Still, seems like a possibility.

[Endymion]

This thread is rubbish. The PS3 has a problem with PS2 games, period. I think Lachlan must have really poor vision. This has been dissected in several forums with several screenshots and video proof of the artifacting. I don't know how the hell an issue this serious could slip through Sony's QA unless they simply did not care.

Another forum broke down images really well and found that the problem is that every other pixel (or some number of pixels) drawn to the screen would be "flipped," that is, drawn in reverse, and I don't just mean backwards either. I mean upside down. The PS3 does this with any interlaced PS2 game. Unfortunately since Sony never demanded that devs make progressive scan games nearly all PS2 titles (even most of the really big ones) through the years are interlaced only. So you are just fucked.

Unless of course you have the Xploder HDTV Player. Whatever it is that Xploder does, it actually fixes the drawing/flipped-pixel issue, in addition to turning on progressive scan. Maybe Sony should buy XPloder. But the point here is that this issue can at least be fixed. I just have zero confidence that sony gives a shit. If they cared it would have been fixed before release, and it is woefully errant that it hasn't been fixed after any update.

As for upscaling, well, the PS3 has no upscaler chip. So you can forget about that ever happening. Unless Sony adds this hardware to a new unit. Which means screw you, early adopters the rest of us are out of luck. The PS3 simply has to be programmed to draw a game at the resolution desired, or it cannot do it. And unfortunately it is not powerful enough to draw 1080i or 1080p for every game. In fact, even games that it can draw 1080i or 1080p for may degrade performance, it's entirely likely that you could see games which support this resolution but perform better at 480i/p or 720p. I can hear the bitching in online games now, "play like a man you wuss! Raise that resolution!" If this doesn't happen you're all the more likely to see a 720p cap, which bolts some people back down to 480p again.

Oh the woes.

[madh83]

Well, looks like one of your woes is gone:

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/24/ps3-1-5-firmware-update-clears-up-backwards-compatibility-issues/#comments

[Endymion]

And to think I was just coming here to post that.

Now if they can do something about progressive scan and upgrading resolutions that they mentioned last year, I could let my PS2 retire.

[Illicious]

Just tested a few games out including the online FFXI.
They run in a nice 480p. At least thats what my HDTV info says.

Now it looks just as good as the PS2 with component cables.

For the upscaling issue i doubt they will even bother.

[Endymion]

But they should bother. I just ran the update last night and it fixes the pixel-flip issue. (I did spot a few fonts in MGS3 that were still flipped in odd places, but not completely. I can't explain that, I really don't know how they can partially fix it, or mostly fix it? Thankfully that was the only issue) However, all PS2 games are still just a touch softer than they are on a real PS2. The difference is pretty slight, but it is definitely there, there is not as much definition and separation between the distinct colours. The effect is more pronounced with interlaced games than with progressive ones, and the progressive titles are much closer in appearance, but I can still tell the difference between a real PS2 and the PS3. I'm not ready to lynch over this, just thanking my lucky stars they fixed the pixel-flip issue already.

[LinuxJackal]

The Nvidia RSX chip that is in the PS3 is capable of upscaling according to Nvidia since the chip is based on the GeForce 7 series of GPUs and those can upscale. If there is no firmware that can fix this upscale issue, Sony or someone else should manufacture a HDMI add on for upscaling.
eg
(720p output from PS3) -> (HDMI) -> (HDMI add on upscale chipset) -> (converts 720p to 1080i) -> (output 1080i to componet cables at other end of device)
This should work for 720p -> 1080i
and even downscale 1080p -> 720p
(These are the TWO biggest issues so far)
Even if this "device" is made and retails for say $50.00 to $75.00 (I can not see it costing more than that) It will make a few people happy and put a end to this issue.

Hopefully like I said, a firmware update (the big one is coming out sometime in March) can fix this nagging issue

PS3 20gig -gametag "LinuxJackal"
PS3 60gig -gametag "JulsTheJackal"

Yes I do have two of them since I won one at the Company Christmas Party! :dance:

[LinuxJackal]

Not to worry anymore.
The PS3 does indeed have an up-scaling chip but has been hidden or not activated yet for a strange reason.
Goto gaming-age.com/news/2007/1/26-39
and here is the "techno" info of this up-scaling chip Goto Beyond3d.com/articles/ps3scaler/index.php?p=01
So hopefully soon, all these issues will be fixed.

[HPotter]

I just read that article a few days ago and I was so relieved. I've also heard that developers knew the PS3 had the scaler but they weren't allowed to use or else the games would not pass Sony's approval. Just a little weird that it was never leaked that the PS3 actually had a scaler in it, at least I've never heard about it until know. M$ obviously were clueless also with all the bashing they did about it (PS3) not having a scaler. I think the fun is just starting and now M$ and every 360 fanboy is starting to sweat just a little bit lol.

[Endymion]

The news about the "scaler" is not necessarily related to fixing the PS2 compatibility issue. Here's an article and analysis (http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2007/1/28/6783). Everything that I'm reading about the "scaler," it sounds like it behaves entirely like a software solution, not the least of which is the matter that it is not driving 720p to upscale to 1080i. Horizontal resolution is scaled but vertical is not, which strikes me a lot like only enabling the left channel for stereo. I can only gather this would look worse than 720p, and it sounds as if there would be no visible difference between 1080i or 1080p, presuming this mode even allows for 1080p broadcasts. (i.e. sounds a lot like line doubling of a 960x1080 screen)

Overall, looks lame, and looks a lot like software. My money is on this "hardware scaler" being a Cell SPE unit. Why else would Sony be threatening anyone with lawsuits for just discussing it?

[Maj. Jaq@ss]

Easy answer for the Horizontal scalar being opened up.. EU Launch.

PAL output has different resolution (resolution 720 x 486) than NTSC NTSC (resolution 648 x 486 - preferred format) so opening up the hardware scalar for horizontal just allows you to scale from 648 - 720.

Will this provide a faster development turn around time for releasing titles not having to create 2 sets of graphics for every game visual element for 2 similar but different resolutions?

~Jaq@ss~

[Endymion]

PAL won't help.

720p is 1280x720--not 720x486.

1080 (i or p) is 1920x1080.

For HDTV these resolutions these should be the same across continents. So the PAL games will have the same problems if the developers cannot get the game to function reliably and fast at 1080 lines, throttling it back.

[Maj. Jaq@ss]

720p is 1280x720--not 720x486.

I was referring to SD.

[cause_of_chaos]

Yeah in that Sony article, it stated that it is up to the Developers to use/enable the scaler. They also state that PS2/PS1 games WON'T be upscaled.

cause_of_chaos

[Endymion]

I was referring to SD.

This thread is about upscaling, which isn't possible on SD.

[davbere]

From what I read, A new release Virtual fighter 5, displays in multiple resolutions.

480, 720,1080i and maybe 1080p.

[cause_of_chaos]

Virtua Fighter 5 supports 1080p ;)

cause_of_chaos